How Cities Can Simplify Rooftop Solar — Episode 218 of Local Energy Rules

Zachary Greene:

Having a broader marketplace to work in is extremely important. And I think one of the things especially that Solar app does is provide that harmonization element in a very easy to access way as opposed to actually having to convene regionally and work through, okay, your community wants this. My community’s interested in that. It’s kind of an off the shelf opportunity to say, let’s all just adopt this one platform. And that way it’ll be a very straightforward and easy way for an installer to understand, come into our region and really do business.

John Farrell:

Imagine buying a new car or a new refrigerator, but then waiting six months for your city government to approve a permit to bring it home and to start using it. If you’re buying solar panels, this can happen. And while the dollar cost of the permit might be small, its impact on the process of going solar can increase the stress and cost for everyone involved. It’s certainly one reason that U.S. rooftop solar costs two to three times more than in places like Australia, where incidentally, there are numerous places where no permit is required at all. Joining me in August, 2024 to talk about how we’re solving the solar permitting problem in the U.S., were Toyah Callahan, vice President for local initiatives for the Interstate Renewable Energy Council, and Zach Greene, senior manager for Clean Energy at the World Resources Institute. I’m John Farrell, director of the Energy Democracy Initiative at the Institute for Local Self-Reliance. And this is Local Energy Rules, a podcast about monopoly power, energy democracy, and how communities can take charge to transform the energy system. Toyah and Zach, welcome to Local Energy Rules.

Toyah Callahan:

Thank you, John.

Zachary Greene:

Thanks John.

John Farrell:

I love to ask all my guests this question about how you got into this line of work and what motivated you. So Toyah, I’ll tap you first here. Why solar permitting? Why are you working on something as like detailed and complex about this within this broader space of clean energy?

Toyah Callahan:

So I’d have to take you down a very short trip down memory lane. The first time I ever saw a solar panel was when I was about 10 years old. Seems like a long time ago. And I remember being curious and intrigued about how you could harness energy through the sun. And this was a hint of what was yet to come from me. Fast forwarding to grad school, I was fortunate enough to intern with the United Nations Development Program in a rural remote village in East Africa where I was tasked with providing recommendations for solar and water piping systems for that community. And during my internship, I visited a local health center that lacked access to reliable electricity. And the in-house nurses told me about the challenges that they had with access to electricity and being able to provide adequate healthcare to patients that came in.

So there were instances where this was a life and death situation, and a patient would travel miles and miles only to be turned back because there wasn’t access to electricity. There would be pregnant women who would arrived at the hospital in labor only for the deliveries to be performed with a cell phone flashlight. So machines that you find in a hospital like incubators and refrigeration for medicines were non-operational because of the lack of access to electricity. So this was the first time I really fully understood how bad it could get and how access to renewable energy could alleviate some of these problems. So at that moment, I knew I had to have a career that impacted people in a positive way that increased their access to energy. So today I oversee the local initiatives program at the Interstate Renewable Energy Council, and our work is centered around providing technical assistance to local governments with the goal of reducing barriers to solar storage, EV adoption across the nation. We also provide community resilience solutions to municipalities and Puerto Rico.

John Farrell:

Thanks so much, Toyah. Wow. I have to say, Zach, that I wouldn’t want to have to come after this with my story for how I got into clean energy, which was a little more random involving grad school here in the United States. But how did you get into this space? What has motivated you to be in the clean energy space?

Zachary Greene:

Yeah. Well, I was thinking as Toyah was speaking, I was like, I really don’t know how I’m going to follow that up, but I’ve always been very fascinated by energy, the energy system and what it means for us. It is so pervasive and it’s had such a profound impact on everything we do. And like Toyah, I got into this work specifically because I wanted to help people. I thought, here’s a career and opportunity to really bring some value to society to help my neighbors, my community do more and really try to support that clean energy transition. I was fortunate to get my start in the space, not on the permitting side of things, but I did have an early introduction to energy and to solar. I had internships at NYSERDA and at SEIA, one of my fondest memories from SEIA actually was tracking all solar projects greater than one megawatt, which if I think about that today, gives me a huge headache because I don’t think that’s possible anymore.

But at the time, it was a big deal and something that was really helpful in testimony and things like that. That’s what introduced me to solar and some of the soft cost issues, permitting issues, but I really gained a better understanding of what the issues were at the local level. During grad school, actually, I had a fateful grad school experience where I had a colleague, a classmate who was working in the mayor’s office at the time in Austin, Texas and invited me in to do an internship there. And so got to spend some time in city hall doing communications work for a former mayor of Austin and really cultivating my understanding of what local government is and what it means to people and what its role can truly be in helping the community in which it’s located. And so it really made me a firm believer that local governments are key to unlocking the clean energy future and it inspired me to do more in this space.

And that’s when I found a really fortunate opportunity after grad school to work at the Solar Foundation, which actually recently merged with IREC and got to work with Toyah actually at the Solar Foundation. And we launched the SolSmart program, which I think we’ll talk a little bit more about later on. But this program really focused on the role that local governments can play in shaping clean energy deployment in their communities. I eventually led the technical assistance part of that program before transitioning to another role within a city. I was fortunate to serve the city of Philadelphia where I currently live as the climate advisor working on buildings and transportation issues as well as with large scale power purchase agreement issues for other entities within the region. And so I’ve always had this opportunity to work either in or alongside local governments as they consider opportunities to advance solar, other clean energy technologies, EVs. And I’m fortunate enough nowadays working at World Resources Institute, WRI, that I’m working with communities nationwide as they plan for and implement clean energy projects. And I’m really excited to continue being a TA provider, a technical assistance provider on the SolSmart program and working with Toyah on that.

John Farrell:

That’s wonderful. Thank you both. Well, if you didn’t believe it in the beginning of this podcast, you can tell by now that we have two folks who are really deeply invested in and have lots of experience in these issues of distributed energy and local governments. So I’m delighted to have you both. Let’s jump right in to this issue about solar costs in the U.S., distributed solar costs just very broadly. There was a study called Local Solar for All published in late 2020. It said we could save as much as half a trillion dollars by investing in more distributed energy like rooftop solar. We know that local solar has significant value to the grid in terms of avoided pollution, meeting local energy needs, creating jobs. Studies in Minnesota and other places have documented this. And we also know that utilities have been on a decade long campaign to fight competition from rooftop solar. That famous report that came out talking about a death spiral. With all that sort of important context, why is it that I can get rooftop solar in Australia or Germany for a lower price than in the United States? What’s a barrier to making rooftop solar even more awesome and affordable?

Zachary Greene:

Well, I would say that solar is pretty awesome regardless. What an amazing technology that we can harness the energy that’s so abundant to us every day and turn that into something that helps us turn on our lights every day or be on these computers and podcasts. So I think it’s pretty awesome as is, but there’s definitely some room for improvement in the United States to increase the affordability. I think one of the most interesting things you mentioned there in terms of looking abroad is when we started the SolSmart program, I remember vividly we used to highlight the fact that Germany had this amazing solar market, and yet their solar resource was pretty limited. When you look at the solar resource in Germany, it equates to the Pacific Northwest or Alaska. And so it’s not the fact that they have more sunshine and the ability to generate more electricity.

There were other things at play really that were affecting the market and affecting the affordability and the willingness of consumers to actually adopt the, and so I remember we used to use that as a talking point, and Australia’s a little bit different. Their solar resource is incredible. But again, there’s this different story. It’s not just about how much sun is shining. There’s these other costs and compensation mechanisms to take into account. So I think policy and things like incentives and compensation are a really important piece of the equation. Germany had its feed in tariff, which was a huge driver of adoption there. Australia had pretty significant incentives for adoption. So those elements were key factors. But another key factor is just the upfront cost of installation for a solar array. And so in Australia for example, I believe the cost of installation is about two to three times cheaper per watt than it is in the U.S.

And so what is the driver behind that? And when you dig down into this, and I’m really thankful that I found some great resources from Saul Griffith, the founder of Rewiring America, who’s done some comparative analysis on this. When you dig down into it, it’s not the hardware costs, it’s not the labor costs associated with installation. At the end of the day, it’s the soft costs. It’s those non hardware costs like permitting, interconnection. Those are the key issues that are arising as being the main drivers of this difference between the countries. So in the U.S. we have a patchwork of jurisdictions. There’s over 38,000 general purpose local governments. Those are your towns, your cities, your counties, and over 50,000 special purpose governments like school districts. And each of those jurisdictions, you mentioned AHJs, it’s an amazing acronym that is. But all of these AHJs have their own ways of treating solar, and that creates a barrier to adoption.

Lawrence Berkeley National Lab found in 2020 that the typical permitting timeline in the US was about 50 days with half the systems taking either less than 27 days or more than 96 days. So you have this extreme deviation in terms of the permitting processes in the U.S. and that’s just not something that you’re necessarily seeing in other countries. So in Australia, they have either no permitting requirement in certain jurisdictions as long as your house isn’t part of a historic residence. And then in places where they do require permits, permits often are online or are online and take days as opposed to weeks or months to actually be approved. In most cases, I think 24 hours. And so what you’re seeing here in the U.S., you have a variety of different regimes, whether it’s you have to go in person with paper, some places are doing online permitting.

We have some of that single day permitting, but it’s more pervasive in Australia. And a lot of that actually stems from the government there adopting national best practices, national standards, accreditation for installers and materials, providing extensive trainings as well as conducting audits. And so that’s limited their dependency for the need for permitting because at the end of the day, permitting is about safety, making sure that these systems are safely installed. They don’t create any safety issues for the residents or for the community. And so Australia’s taking that more national track of let’s look at doing this at a national scale. And that’s not to say that they’ve figured it out. I recall articles about safety issues that had arisen in Australia around potential fires caused by certain work that had happened there. And not to say that’s perfect, but they’ve done a great job of ensuring that this happens effectively, efficiently, and they have reduced the time and money that it takes. And I think we have a lot to learn by looking abroad and seeing how these other countries are doing it. Germany actually just recently I believe, removed the requirement for permits for rooftop solar. Other countries in Europe have followed suit. It’s something that really needs to be considered more often in the U.S. We’re starting to get there with instantaneous permitting solutions, but we’re still kind of have a ways to go.

John Farrell:

Let’s talk a little bit about sort of the impact. You mentioned, Zach, the issue around the timeframe in Australia, some of these other places that could be minutes, hours, days to get a permit, even if you even need one. In the U.S. you almost always do need a permit. And you’re talking about days, weeks, months. Let’s talk a little bit about the cost. So there’s the cost of the permit itself, of course, but there’s also ways other than the actual dollar value of the permit that solar, it makes solar more complex and costly to sell to consumers. Can we talk a little bit about that? What is the situation that consumers are experiencing that solar developers are experiencing and how does it impact the cost of doing solar in the us?

Toyah Callahan:

So I’ll talk a little bit about the cost in terms of the building departments and what that poses for them. So typically permitting is about a minimal part of the overall cost. So it tends to be about one to 2% of the overall system cost. However, I just want to highlight something that Zach brought up. AHJs definitely have different permitting processes. So depending on what jurisdiction you’re working in, some jurisdictions might go ahead and just waive the permitting costs altogether. Some may have a fixed amount based on some of the expenses that they have within their building departments. So these permit fees do go to some of those expenses within the departments. And I want to highlight that the importance of the SolSmart program and ensuring that jurisdictions have best practices in front of them to ensure that these permitting processes are not only cost effective for developers, but also increase efficiency within those departments.

So you look at instantaneous permitting and how easy it is to submit your permit application online and receive that instant approval, that cuts down a lot of the cost. And then also ensuring that information is clear and transparent for applicants. So having that online checklist permitting checklist. So if I go into the and know exactly what I need to submit and who I need to submit it to, so having an online system versus me walking into an office and submitting my permit application that way, there are different best practices. It’s a SolSmart program works with communities to ensure that they’re able to at least cut down and have that fixed cost, which is under $500 per residential permit, or even better waive those residential fees for a solar permit. So I’ll turn it to Zach if you want to just talk about customer acquisition.

Zachary Greene:

And to Toyah’s points, I think one of the most important things to think about is time is money. The more time the more truck rolls, which is a term of art that they use in the industry, that more time folks are going to an office from another place, that’s all going to cost money. Those are wages that have to be paid. So that increases the cost. So the more time that you’re spending, the more back and forth there has to be. That’s just more cost that’s going to be built onto the system price. But there is another issue here, which is that in order to have customers that adopt solar, you need to be able to do that effectively and efficiently, right? If you buy solar, you want to see it on your house immediately. What other things do we buy and then take months or years to even install?

And so folks get fed up with waiting around for permits to go through and actually end up dropping out of the process and saying, I don’t actually want this solar array anymore. I’m going to move forward without it. And that actually creates significant costs because one of the soft costs that really does affect the price of an overall system is customer acquisition costs. So these are the costs to basically get somebody to sign up for solar that installers use. So it’s advertising, right? It’s going online. It’s the various ways in which installers try to attract new clients. And so these costs are extremely high in the U.S. in the thousands of dollars, whereas they’re in the hundreds of dollars in places like Australia. And again, part of this is because if folks drop out of that process, they’ve spent all this money trying to acquire that customer and now they’re gone and they’ve gotten no profit from it. And so you’re seeing these costs balloon again as the time increases for that permit, the likelihood of folks dropping out increases as well. That’s a really pervasive issue that we’re facing here. And something where we’re again, seeing it’s not the permit itself, that’s the cost, but it’s a downstream impact of what that permitting process causes that’s actually leading to higher costs generally for other systems in the process.

John Farrell:

One of the things found interesting about this issue is that, I mean, I have my own personal memory of being curious about this years ago, but when I googled the phrase quote, why is rooftop solar more expensive in the U.S.? It looks like it was a hot topic a number of years ago, like in 2018, even earlier, people have been thinking about this problem and the relative difference between U.S. and other countries. What have we learned since then?

Toyah Callahan:

So great question, John. So one thing I would have to highlight is soft costs were problematic and the need to reduce that was really important. The need to reduce barriers, whether they’re intentional, unintentional in jurisdictions is critical. So the thing that we’ve done with the SolSmart program is really identified what are those barriers that are stopping communities from deploying more solar or developers investing more solar in these communities and really working on a set of best practices that communities can easily adopt. So I mentioned earlier the need for online information. We’re in a digital age, everyone’s on their computer on this smartphone. It’s important to have that accessible to people. So it’s a lot easier to gather information and know exactly what you need to submit. So the need for education for training, ensuring that building departments, planning and zoning departments, folks that are looking at inspections have adequate educational tools and resources to keep up with the evolving technology that is happening within the renewable industry is critical.

So one of the things that we do at IREC as well, and this is through another program, not SolSmart, which Zach will probably tell us a little bit more about. The SolSmart Program is a sustainable energy action committee, and that is a national forum that brings together different stakeholders to really talk about issues related to codes and standards. And then we talk about things like permitting and how officials definitely need the information, the tools to keep up with the technology. So the key stakeholders that participate in the Sustainable Energy Action Committee are from a diverse group, which includes building officials, firefighters, first responders, testing labs, nonprofits that are working in this industry. And we sort of identify the key issues that are sort of creating roadblocks for safe deployment of solar energy systems. And we create these best practices. We create information bulletins, white papers on how to ensure that we are permitting and inspecting and deploying these systems in a safe manner.

The other thing I wanted to highlight, it’s important also for jurisdictions to stay ahead of or stay on track with upcoming model codes and how that impacts the changes in different technologies. So energy storage as well is part of that and understanding how technology continues to evolve. So if you’re adding a solar system and storage, or if you’re adding power control systems or if there’s the use of electric vehicles, how do all these technologies work together and how do you permit them in a safe manner? So one thing I would say is we’ve definitely come a long way when it comes to reducing soft costs, but there’s a lot more to learn when it comes to evolving technology and how you stay in tune with what is happening with those changes.

John Farrell:

That’s really helpful. I always want to ask really quick, as you mentioned firefighters, I feel like there was something I read in the U.S. or sort of uniquely in the U.S. that there was this issue about firefighters want to be able to access the roof of a building that’s on fire because they will sometimes cut a hole to let the smoke out. And so there was an issue about solar panels covering the roof, and it had potentially really big implications. It was something about you couldn’t cover the whole roof with the solar panels, but of course it’s so inexpensive once you’re already up on the roof putting on panels to cover as much room as possible. So there was this interesting tension. Where are we with that? Out of curiosity, how are we finding the right balance between fire safety and being able to put up as much solar as we possibly can in an economical way?

Toyah Callahan:

So we actually have developed some language in the SolSmart program around fire safety and access to the roof and sort of the percentage that is allowable. We’ve noticed that yes, there are instances where it can be a huge barrier to install solar on a roof because of that requirement. So we’ve definitely developed some best practices. I would need to refer back to the criteria to give you a definitive answer on the percentage.

Zachary Greene:

Yeah, the venting issue is something that the solar community has been working extensively with the firefighter community to address and talk through. What are the actual needs, what can we get away with in terms of maximizing the sizing of the system and ensuring that you still have the access that you need. I think it’s so interesting going back to the question you asked about what have we learned since 2018? I think one of the things, it’s not necessarily what we learned, but I think there’s just a lot more dialogue that’s crosscutting across these various different types of departments, whether it’s your building department, your zoning and planning and zoning department, your firefighters. I think there’s become a broader discussion that has led to a lot more consensus building, a lot more best practice development and enabling folks to not just throw out their preferred number of feet setback or what have you, but actually come together to define what is the best practice that will enable everyone to get the best out of this situation.

And so I think that that’s been something really valuable, that as we’re seeing more deployment of solar, more folks are coming to the table and we’re learning how to interact a lot more across emergency staff, across firefighters. I think the next realm to really consider with this is energy storage. And I know there’s a lot of concerns around how do we deal with energy storage if there’s any types of fire issues. And so when we’re thinking about what do we look to next, it’s really working with that firefighter community, working with that emergency responder community to make sure that they’re feel comfortable with the next set of technologies that are on its way and how to effectively deal with that. And so yeah, the trainings that SolSmart provides that partners in the space provide, I think are essential for ensuring that firefighters can feel safe doing their job. And again, this all goes back to safety. We want to make sure that folks can install solar and maintain a safe environment for themselves, for their families, for their communities. And so we need to find that balance between what is sufficient regulation to make that happen without being overly burdensome. And that’s always a very hard balance to find unfortunately.

Toyah Callahan:

And I just wanted to add one other thing, and I think this is the point I was making earlier. It’s really important for jurisdictions to understand what the newest codes are, the international fire codes. So if it is covered in there, they don’t need to have additional regulation around it since it’s already identified in the international fire codes. This is why it’s so important for them to stay in tune with the newest versions of those codes.

Zachary Greene:

One final thing though, to go back to your question was why was this a hot topic in 2018? And as I was trying to put myself back in that timeframe and remember what was going on in 2018, which was hard to do unfortunately at this point, but one of the things that I found and recall was there’s actually a really great article in Green Tech Media at the time that actually dove into these issues of comparing the U.S. to Australia. And I feel like that actually kind of set off this broader discussion of, Hey, why is this happening? And it was really kind of that light that was shown on this specific issue that led to this larger growth of, oh, we need to double down on trying to get soft costs reduced because this is really a pervasive issue that’s leading to us being less competitive.

And so it’s really important to have thought leaders come out and raise these kind of looking forward or looking outside of the context we’re in right now providing something for us to think about, to aim for as we’re trying to innovate in this space. And so really think it was partially those kinds of articles, that kind of thought piece that spurred these broader dialogues in the solar community and the local government community of, oh, what can we do better? And it was just so interesting to take that trip down memory lane of like, oh, what was happening in 2018 that might’ve spurred that specific Google search and interest.

John Farrell:

Yeah, I think one of the reasons I brought it up is because an element to me of frustration in seeing that there was attention to this issue that many years ago, and yet we’re still, as you pointed out, two x three x times more expensive than Australia. I mean, I do think our federal government system and the authority, the way that we have authority spread around obviously as a complexifying factor, but there’s a part of me that’s like, man, we seem to have the incentive thing figured out, right? We passed the IRA, lots of states have given incentives for solar, but this other piece is really challenging. And also, I guess another part of me that looks at it in a funny way about fire safety, for example, and I think about I have a gas furnace and a gas water heater and a gas dryer in my house.

My house is already set to explode. If it catches fire, how much worse can solar really make it? I know that’s not the way, the appropriate way to think about it, but it also just like the context here seems a little funny in terms of what the risks are from various things that are already in our houses and how much intention we put around some of these things just because new, even though the risks may not be as high. And I guess that kind of gets to what you were saying, Toyah, what does the International Fire code say? Maybe it already says there’s not as much that we need to do specific to this technology given the overall picture.

John Farrell:

We are going to take a short break. When we come back, I ask my guests about the connection between SolSmart and SolarApp+, a new software platform for instant permitting. We also discuss similarities to interconnection and whether states could or should preempt local permitting rules. You are listening to a Local Energy Rules podcast with Toyah Callahan, vice President for local initiatives for the Interstate Renewable Energy Council, and Zach Greene, senior manager for Clean Energy at the World Resources Institute.

Hey, thanks for listening to Local Energy Rules. We’re so glad you’re here. If you like what you’ve heard, please help other folks find us by giving the show a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, five stars if you think we’ve earned it. As a bonus, I’ll gladly read your review aloud on the show if it includes an energy related joke or pun. Now back to the program.

So I wanted to ask specifically about the SolSmart Program and how it may or may not be connected with Solar App Plus, which I have heard of. I know that that was a collaboration between the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and some cities focused specifically on the online permitting component. Are they connected? Is there a connection between those specifically or intentionally, or is it just that they’re very complimentary? What is the connection there?

Toyah Callahan:

Yeah, so I think before I talk about that, I just want to make sure I state what SolSmart is for those that might not know. So SolSmart is actually a national technical assistance and designation program that is designed to work with local governments across the country to streamline processes like permitting, planning and zoning inspection. And the key goal is to ensure that we’re reducing soft costs and cutting the red tape to get those solar systems online. So this program is actually in its eighth year, and the program is led by the International City County Management Association, ICMA and the Interstate Renewable Energy Council, IEC. And we work collaboratively with a magnitude of partners including WRI, where Zach works, to provide one-on-one technical assistance to jurisdictions. And we’ve actually designated over 500 communities across the country. So we have a goal to get to a thousand.

It is an ambitious goal, but we see the need for this program and it has been extremely successful. And actually we did a third party evaluation a couple of years ago that found that there was a 17% increase in installations in SolSmart designated programs. So that was really great to see the impact of the program. Now, in terms of Solar app, as you mentioned, John, this is an initiative or a tool that was developed by NREL and a number of key stakeholders. And the goal for this is really to provide a standardized plan review software that runs compliance checks and processes, building permit approvals for rooftop systems. So Solar App plus is a free online platform. It allows local governments to go ahead and use it to standardize their processes and automate their permanent process. Now, in terms of the connection with SolSmart, they are complimentary.

SolSmart actually recently launched its new tier of designation. So we have bronze, silver, and gold designation. With gold designation, we have actions like waive your permit fees, have a one day turnaround time or three day turnaround time on solar permits and platinum picks it up a notch. So with platinum, if you have instantaneous permitting, you’re legible for platinum designation. So one of the criteria that we have is actually for community to demonstrate a pathway, for instance, or automatic approval of residential rooftop solar systems. So using a platform like Solar App plus would get you there. So really that is the connection, and we work collaboratively with folks at Solar App to really find synergies with the communities they work with and the communities we work within to make sure that they are being recognized for really having the industry standard for fast approval processes for permits.

John Farrell:

That’s great. I know that this is sort of complex because of course the cost of solar is driven, as we’ve talked about by a lot of different components. And even if you have one platinum rated community, a solar developer is probably serving a much broader region than that one community. And you talked about one of the outcomes that you’re seeing from the designated communities or one of the relationships between them doing that is that you see an increase in solar installations. Do you have any evidence about it lowering the costs since we know that obviously the permitting impacts the customer acquisition, but are you finding that in places that are using best practices that are getting SolSmart designations that solar costs are lower? Or is that sort of too complex to measure?

Toyah Callahan:

I would go with the latter answer. I think at this point that is a very difficult thing for us to measure given the vast amount of communities that we work with. However, I would be curious to see if other entities have done studies on this and be able to track that down for you, John.

Zachary Greene:

Yeah, I’d love to address that other piece around the one community adopting this and what happens elsewhere because a solar installer is going to want to work in a region. They’re not just going to want to work in one community. And the concept of regional harmonization is something that we had talked a lot about. I feel like in 2016 when the program launched, I haven’t heard that term as much recently, but the idea is how do you ensure that a region, not just that one community has the same requirements for permitting so that it’s easy for installer to go in and not just install one city, but in the whole MSA or even more broadly. And so this idea of harmonizing processes, making sure that the types of documentation doesn’t differ, I think it’s super important for building more robust solar markets. I mean, it really is an essential piece of this because there’s only going to be so many customers in a single locality that you can touch so many homes that are actually good locations for solar.

And so having a broader marketplace to work in is extremely important. And I think one of the things especially that solar app does is provide that harmonization element in a very easy to access way as opposed to actually having to convene regionally and work through, okay, your community wants this. My community’s interested in that. It’s kind of an off the shelf opportunity to say, let’s all just adopt this one platform. And that way it’ll be a very straightforward and easy way for an installer to understand, come into our region and really do business even if it’s just one community that starts off with this. I think one of the things we know about solar is that it’s the observability of the technology that’s the most critical. Once you see solar in your community, it raises the interest level, it raises the ambition of communities and residents.

Observability has been proven through studies. I believe NREL has done numerous studies on this. That is a key driving factor. And so having one community in a region adopt more solar, it’s going to trickle down to demonstrate more interest in those other regions too. And what I would say too is you mentioned the incentives and the IRA and what’s happening, the more demand that folks are going to have for solar is going to push jurisdictions to be better in terms of being quicker in the process. One of the things I think especially when we were starting off in SolSmart, it wasn’t that high of demand. So there was questions about, well, why do we have to fix a permitting process for something where we’re getting one permit every three months for an array? Now we’re seeing hundreds and hundreds and even more permits coming in the door In some of these larger cities, we’re going to be seeing more because of these new tax incentives or expanding tax instead. And so I think that’s going to also put pressure on communities to say, we need to reevaluate what we’re doing. We should look regionally as well and see if there are opportunities to potentially streamline this process to ensure that we can meet the need of our residents and businesses that are really considering this now.

Toyah Callahan:

And Zach, I just wanted to add a little bit on the regional approach. One of the things that we’ve done over the years is we’ve worked with regional organizations under the SolSmart program to really ensure they’re putting the word out on best practices for our jurisdictions within their region. And for these regional organizations like Council of Governments to be able to actually achieve gold designation, they actually have to have communities within their region participate in SolSmart. So that has really helped in terms of the peer working together as peers to really combat some of these barriers and also doing it as a region.

John Farrell:

Oh, that’s really helpful to know. So I had Radina Valova from IREC, I know she’s now moved on, on the podcast last year to discuss interconnection, which obviously is another big sticking point for rooftop solar, the connecting to the grid. Obviously I think a major difference here is that a lot of utilities don’t like solar for the impact on their bottom line and for their shareholders, whereas cities and towns generally do because it’s like, oh, this is generating our own energy, maybe solving some climate things. Are there any parallels to permitting where cities for some reason don’t want solar or are reluctant to support solar?

Toyah Callahan:

So I’m going to just start off with answering part of your question and then maybe Zach, if you would like to chime in. So I think with interconnection and permitting, of course there are similarities and I think one of the similarities is really the importance of streamlining the review processes and ensuring that timelines increase certainty for customers. It’s also important for the AHJ or the utility to have the best practices at hand and ensure that they’re updating whatever criteria that they have and making sure these processes are transparent. So that is one thing that we’re ensuring the SolSmart program does, ensuring that transparency is really forefront for communities and utilities. We also really advocate for utilities to work with their local governments and make sure they’re communicating. That’s always a really important one. And in fact, we have a government operations category within, so that promotes best practices for utilities and local governments to engage and to ensure that both the local government staff and the utility staff are trained on the permitting processes. And then the local government staff are trained on the solar interconnection processes. So ensuring that there’s that interchange of information and then also that training, it’s important that it’s up to date. So in our criteria, we ask for communities to make sure that the training is at least every two years to really think about the turnover that they might have, their local governments, and making sure that the staff have the knowledge that they need on interconnection processes to the grid.

Zachary Greene:

And I think going back to the fundamental piece of this question, the two processes are very similar. They’re both in place to protect safety. One is the safety of the building on which or the property on which the solar’s installed. The other is to protect the grid and ensure that a solar system can connect and not create any kinds of issues on the grid itself. And so I think it’s interesting to look at those parallels and that fact that these organizations have these processes in place for a specific reason, and we have to understand the reasoning behind it if we’re going to work to fix the timeline issues that we’re having. And so I think that’s just one thing to keep in mind, what Toyah was mentioning around just the transparency is obviously a key issue for both interconnection and for permitting processes. So that’s definitely an area I think that can be super easily resolved.

Understanding what the requirements are, the timelines that doesn’t require folks to change what they’re doing, it just requires them to be willing to go out and state what the requirements are, what those timelines are. And so when you’re thinking of low barriers to entry, I think that’s the lowest one where we can actually get more information and do so without any additional costs or additional changes to the actual implementation action. So something to keep in mind there. I would also just say that when we’re thinking about this concept of municipalities like solar utilities, I want to add just a little bit of a nuance there to the municipalities angle, which is municipalities might have high level goals related to solar, but then you have the departments that actually implement various aspects. So you might have a billings department that’s not fully on board with some of the climate and clean energy goals, not that they’re against them, but just not that they’re at the forefront of what they’re thinking about on their day-to-day job. And so there’s kind of the goals that are set at the high level, and then how do things actually play out when you get down to those departments? And so it’s something important to consider. We’ve seen communities with really great clean energy climate goals that don’t necessarily have the permitting processes that reflect that. And so that disconnect is important. You don’t want to just assume that because your community or a local government has those goals that they’re actually going to be able to support them through the processes that they’ve established.

Toyah Callahan:

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And I think also the need for cross departmental training and making sure that these departments within a jurisdiction actually talking to each other. You have instances where the zoning has intentional barriers in their ordinances and it’s so apparent, and so guess what? If the barriers that exist, you’re not going to have any solar, so there won’t be anything to permit. So really making sure that those different departments are having conversations and training actually.

John Farrell:

Yeah. Oh, that’s so interesting to think about the disconnect maybe between a mayor’s office that’s really excited about climate policy and the building office being like, well, we got a lot of things we’re thinking about here. I wanted to ask one other question though about the permitting. It is sort of unique and interesting that we talked about interconnection and permitting. A lot of states set statewide interconnection rules when it comes to buildings and building safety and design. A lot of states have statewide building codes. Has there ever been conversation, are there any states that preempt, I know preemption is a very sensitive topic where states telling cities what to do, but is there any way that states can be involved usefully or even in terms of setting some standards here? Have you looked at that at all? I mean, it sounds like you’re very supportive of cities with the authority they have, which I totally respect. So I’m not suggesting you should change, but it seems like some of these other issues we do that at the state level, and when we think about the market and the consistency that we talked about, the benefits to developers in terms of knowing what the rules are, maybe that could help, but I guess I’m kind of curious to what degree there’s been conversation about that.

Toyah Callahan:

So in the SolSmart program, we have what is called a modified pathway. And the modified pathway typically is for jurisdictions that might not have authority over certain processes and they’re still able to participate in the program. So we work with them on the processes that they do have specific control over, so if it is permitting or if it’s zoning, and ensure that they’re putting forth those best practices. Another thing that we’ve been doing too is really working with states to talk about the SolSmart program. So ensuring that we get endorsement from them essentially on SolSmart program. Then that way communities within the state are able to participate based on this relationship that we have with the states. So I think that gives a little more comfort to communities that are interested in this.

Zachary Greene:

And we actually do see some states going out on the limb and starting to consider what happens if we preempt that local jurisdiction, so the Maryland General Assembly in 2024 past the Brighter Tomorrow Act, and that’s actually going to require all Maryland jurisdictions to adopt automated permitting. So I think that goes into effect in the next couple of years in terms of when the compliance deadline is. And so you are starting to see this potential shift, or at least in one state, a shift towards the mandate of having that instantaneous permitting as somebody who is a deep believer in local autonomy as well as a deep believer in the need for more clean energy. I’m very conflicted about this. Similarly to the state level, citing boards that are popping up in certain locations, very conflicted about those. I’m sure it could be a topic for a whole other podcast, but definitely an area of interest as you’re thinking about that local autonomy versus the need to really drive more adoption to ensure that we can have an effective and efficient clean energy transition.

John Farrell:

Is there anything as we wrap up that you feel like you wish more clean energy advocates would know or do about permitting?

Toyah Callahan:

So I think for me, because of the involvement that IREC has on codes and standards, I think it is so important for jurisdictions to, I cannot stress this enough for them to stay updated on evolving codes and standards. I think it’s so important because as they’re getting more applications on their desks, and as technology consistently evolves, that can create a knowledge gap that is really detrimental to the progress of renewable energy deployment. If someone does not know how to permit something and does not have readily available information, then it starts up fear and you’re afraid of making a mistake. So some people might just decide to dismiss it all together. We’ve never seen this, we’ve never seen this technology, I just don’t know how to do it. There was an instance where I attended a fire conference in Florida and I spoke to one of the staff who worked with a jurisdiction.

He had a situation where a storage permit was on his desk, and it seemed very foreign to him. So rather than dismissing it and stamping no, he actually went ahead and did the research and got additional training and talked to experts in the field and said, how do I permit this and what are the best practices available? So really I would just urge local jurisdictions as you’re getting more and more diverse permits, ensuring that you have the education and the training and doing the research and following up with the subject matter experts that are out there because it is evolving whether we like it or not.

Zachary Greene:

I love that anecdote, and it’s amazing to hear that there are folks like that. I feel like a lot of times people in this field are risk averse and rightly so because they feel responsible for the wellbeing and safety of folks. And I think that’s honestly what I want to convey to advocates of this is that step into the shoes of the permitting staff and understand why they’re doing what they’re doing. Again, it’s not to create unnecessary burdens or headaches for people. It’s because they have a job to do in terms of supporting the safety and wellbeing of a community, and they take that job seriously. And so that’s not to say that they can’t do their job better, but it’s just they’re people too. And let’s think about the messaging that we use when we are talking about things like installing permitting software like Solar App.

So solar app can be something that would make folks uncomfortable. It takes away their autonomy, it takes away their responsibilities at the job. It leaves them kind of powerless in a certain regard when you’re thinking about permitting of a software. And so just taking that into account and thinking about ways that you can lead with the carrots, right? The fact that it can free you up to focus on systems that are more complex than your cookie cutter solar array, the idea that it can actually expand your staff’s capability as opposed to kind of usurp your power, your authority. I think leading with those carrots and really working with communities to not necessarily lead with the stick of like, you need to do this now. This is essential. But how can we help you do your job better? And how can we support this community and being a safer place? I think leading with that angle is going to get us a lot further when we’re thinking about ways to update these processes in a way that will allow us to effectively officially install more solar.

John Farrell:

Well, Toyah and Zach, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast to talk about permitting. It’s definitely an issue that I think gets less attention than it needs, but it’s such a fundamental piece of how we can be successful at deploying more solar. So really appreciate your expertise and thanks for taking the time with me today.

Toyah Callahan:

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

John Farrell:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Local Energy Rules about Solar Permitting with Toyah Callahan, vice President for local initiatives for the Interstate Renewable Energy Council, and Zach Greene, senior manager for Clean Energy at the World Resources Institute. On the show page, look for a link to the SolSmart Program and more information about Solar App plus, the online tool for instant permitting. We’ll also have a link to our interconnection interview with Mari Hernandez, not Radina Valova as I mistakenly said during the interview, and other ILSR resources on rooftop solar. Local Energy Rules is produced by myself and Maria McCoy with editing provided by audio engineer Drew Birschbach. Tune back into Local Energy Rules every two weeks to hear how we can take on concentrated power to transform the energy system. Until next time, keep your energy local and thanks for listening.